[00:00:00] Que Ondas Primos, Primas y Primes
[00:00:02] Welcome to My, My Primos, My Primos, My, Primos Podcast
[00:00:08] My name is Freddy. My name is Kevin Garcia. My name is Elia Maria Matriz. This is Chikuma
[00:00:12] whenever I can make it. My Primos Podcast discusses all things fandom and pop culture
[00:00:17] from comics, movies, to whatever obsession we have this week. But with the Latine, Latine,
[00:00:22] Malatine perspective remember we're all Primos. We're all Primos. We're all Primos no matter
[00:00:27] what part of the world we're from. John, by the way, Elia and I were saying that since
[00:00:33] Freddy's not here we're trying to debate which one of us is going to be intro so I decided now
[00:00:36] unilaterally it's gonna be you John intro us. Oh my god.
[00:00:42] No, no because yeah Freddy is out he'll be back but uh but let's get started ready?
[00:00:48] Que Ondas Primos, Primas and Primes. Welcome to My Primos Podcast, the only podcast that
[00:00:54] we are all on currently. And I want to say my name is Kevin Garcia. Our head honcho primo
[00:01:01] Freddy is out at the moment but he will return and with us today is my prima in yours
[00:01:07] Elia Maria Spice Illustrations. Hi Kevin. Damn you beat me to it. I was gonna say
[00:01:17] you know because you can't do it today. No I can't. I have to fill in. Not only that but like I listened
[00:01:24] because I was real busy during you know South By and with my Kickstarter and everything
[00:01:28] and I heard you guys you know filling in for me. I felt honored in absentia so that was cool
[00:01:35] and now I was like ready no didn't work didn't work. We have to we have to just honor the
[00:01:41] legendary Kevin Garcia whenever I fulfill the duty. Is we all need a Kevin Garcia in our in
[00:01:49] our hearts now a thing or something? That's the theme of the season I think.
[00:01:54] All right and with us is our frequent primo John Avina who is the creator of Avina Comics
[00:02:02] and I was just trying to explain to somebody this the other day and they didn't quite
[00:02:06] understand. I said he's only been making indie comics for like a year or so and he's got like
[00:02:11] a thousand out right now. John could you introduce yourself and tell me just how many
[00:02:16] comics you've published so far since you started publishing indie comics.
[00:02:20] So I'm John Avina and I have 26 comics out right now. And you started when?
[00:02:27] I published my first comic in 2023. Okay so just for the record everybody
[00:02:35] standard and professional comic, the big name comics let's put it that way they're all
[00:02:39] professional is like one per month and and in indie we're lucky if we get one every six months
[00:02:46] and how how John how? I'm super tired.
[00:02:56] No one told me I could stop so I was just like oh no
[00:03:03] it's all he knows now. You know what no one telling you you know even if they told you
[00:03:08] you could stop don't believe them. All right so since it's been a while since Elia you've been
[00:03:14] here and and John it's actually been not that long since you were here as far as guests go
[00:03:18] but still been a bit. What have y'all been up to? Elia what you been doing lately?
[00:03:23] Kind of just having a refresh I had some family events happen last week and had to
[00:03:30] take some time away because I don't like to push myself like I still have the work of
[00:03:34] course but I don't like to do everything to cloud the brain but in that time though I
[00:03:38] happened to start playing Fortnite for the first time in my whole life and I'm addicted.
[00:03:45] Well I have good news and bad news there is a new game coming out from Marvel that is
[00:03:53] basically a Fortnite clone all starring Marvel characters and I'm just wondering if you're
[00:03:59] going to be maining Loki that's what I want to find out. I don't know yeah it's called Marvel
[00:04:04] Marvel Rivals and if you see the trailer you see exactly what I'm talking about it basically is
[00:04:09] the quality so far at least the trailer looks like the quality of Fortnite but you know
[00:04:14] Marvel with an anime aesthetic and John how about you what have you been doing lately?
[00:04:20] We had other than every comic book in the world we did release two kids comics so we
[00:04:25] have like a kids line now like an all ages comic thing and then we released a new comic
[00:04:30] called familiar dungeons which is really exciting so on the note of familiar dungeons you sent
[00:04:38] us a package to the show and it was well appreciated I think oh my god the chat was
[00:04:44] going wild when we were seeing pictures like what is this so cool. Freddie's definitely posting that on social media
[00:04:51] and we've all had a chance to read at least the first chapter and we definitely loved it so
[00:05:00] let's well wait real quick what I've been doing I just did a comic con this past week
[00:05:04] hill country comic con it was a lot of fun and I've got another one coming up
[00:05:07] staple which is an amazing comic con we'll talk about that in a moment. First familiar
[00:05:13] dungeons John and Vina give us the elevator pitch what is this? So familiar dungeons
[00:05:17] follows siblings from like kind of a broken home as they are transported from a high school party
[00:05:24] to a role-playing module and they have to like set aside their differences in order to find their way home
[00:05:33] and is it fair to call this an isekai?
[00:05:39] I'm not sure what that is okay sorry I don't either oh my what oh I thought oh wow okay I'm
[00:05:46] okay uh all right so we got to back into this so I am the marvel comics guy I definitely read
[00:05:54] a lot of western comics I read a lot of european comics I do read some manga but not nearly as
[00:05:59] much as my friends so it is weird to me that I am the the least qualified person to explain this
[00:06:06] but isekai is basically a genre of of manga and anime and manhua and stuff that has
[00:06:13] so taken over the publishing industry in Asia over the past 20 years that it has become a force
[00:06:20] unto itself and it is basically characters were in one world bad stuff happened they're now in
[00:06:25] another world um it's what we used to call portal fiction here stuff like you know wizard
[00:06:30] of oz or peter pan but uh in in Japan the stereotype is that the protagonist will get hit
[00:06:37] by a truck and then they'll wake up in a in a Dungeons and Dragons world um oh and with a
[00:06:42] lot of isekai the characters it's so popular now characters are now aware of the rules of that
[00:06:47] world and they know that well I got isekai that means I'm going to be up yep there it is
[00:06:51] there's my menu of my options uh oh looks like I have a few points to get to the next level
[00:06:56] okay I can do that and so they actually are aware they're in a game world um and it's
[00:07:02] become a thing and I love that you basically made a western isekai isekai without actually
[00:07:08] yeah knowing that was a thing I'm I read some manga but I'm not as like well versed in it
[00:07:17] as I should be like I'm always getting recommendations on stuff so I should like
[00:07:21] dive into it a little bit more but yeah for me it was like when I explain it to people I'm
[00:07:25] like oh it's like Jumanji or Tron it's uh basically just like you're here and now you're
[00:07:31] there and you got to find your way back like Jumanji has been pitched around a lot for like
[00:07:36] the newer ones because yeah SNL had a skit about that over the weekend and it made me laugh because
[00:07:41] I was like yeah this is so topical for me well that's kind of what I'm getting at it's it's
[00:07:46] it's becoming increasingly topical as the years go by because so many things are part of it
[00:07:52] although most of the ones in Japan are not about finding their way back some of them are
[00:07:56] um the other main um well I was gonna say other influence but that first one's not an
[00:08:01] influence just coincidence the the main influence as I understand it is role playing games right
[00:08:05] like Dungeons and Dragons yes so uh have you played one before yeah I DM'd a Star Wars one for a
[00:08:14] really long time nice so we did that and then I was a player at a table for like four or five
[00:08:21] years and now we're gonna redo like a longer campaign that I get to DM so writing this really
[00:08:27] kind of like reinvigorated my love for the game and like storytelling and one of the things
[00:08:32] we made for this was uh like little dice sheets so you can actually put your dice in here
[00:08:38] there lord that's amazing so these are that you got a you got a dagger that holds dice in it
[00:08:44] it is literally a dagger of fate yeah oh my gosh so this is the first one we did these
[00:08:50] are the prototypes and then I just got these in today yo branded appropriately oh yeah oh that's
[00:08:58] badass we're gonna start selling those like online and stuff and then you guys are gonna get it for
[00:09:03] like because you guys are awesome and freddy was telling me about your dnd things so I was
[00:09:09] like these are going out for sure oh my god those are killer yeah oh my god elia you've got
[00:09:16] a background with dnd too right I do I love playing dnd um I've uh I started in 2017 not
[00:09:26] that long I was gonna say since I was a wee illustration yeah around 2017 so about
[00:09:33] seven years and then that was that was dnd too right Dungeons and Dragons yeah I love playing
[00:09:38] Dungeons and Dragons but I also love like other tabletop games as well tabletop role playing
[00:09:43] um if I get to roll dice and play a character I like it yeah I have actually
[00:09:48] barely played Dungeons and Dragons at all um but I've played a ton of tabletop uh for
[00:09:53] example uh a white wolf the people who make the new world of the world of darkness or
[00:09:58] vampire the masquerade those kind of games I played those I I basically ran the same game
[00:10:05] for seven years straight um it was just one ongoing universe with mostly the same players
[00:10:12] it was it was a lot of fun but my experience with dnd have all been weird um when I was
[00:10:18] like in middle school I I'd never played it before and I saw these I was trying I was
[00:10:22] in a new town I just moved recently and I was trying to make some friends were a couple nerdy
[00:10:26] kids I'm like I'm nerdy I can have these guys um and these guys were full on like 80s nerds
[00:10:30] like the thick glasses and everything but like in the 80s nerd way not in the cool stylish way
[00:10:34] like today um and so they were planning to play the game and I said hey guys can I play
[00:10:38] too and they were like you wouldn't get this game it's above you and so that was my first
[00:10:44] experience with Dungeons and Dragons. That's that's toxic that's gross um let me go I'm sorry
[00:10:54] you had to deal with that so my next experience with Dungeons and Dragons not really that but
[00:10:59] the game the the d20 system was the Star Wars game and um a friend of a friend of mine who
[00:11:05] he and I always game together were invited by another friend to play at their house
[00:11:08] so we get there and he wants to try out Star Wars game like cool let's do it and then
[00:11:12] right where we start he says okay but nobody's allowed to be Jedi's because this takes place
[00:11:15] right after uh you know return of the Jedi there are no Jedi yet so you can't have any
[00:11:18] force powers we're like we're in a Star Wars game with no force powers that feel you know
[00:11:22] what fine let's play the game we'll have fun he goes okay so that's so you're okay and this
[00:11:25] is who my character is and we're like aren't you the dungeon master and he goes yeah but I'm
[00:11:29] playing too we're like oh this is gonna go well so his character was a survivor of order 66
[00:11:37] uh who was a Jedi master he trained Luke uh Han was jealous of him and Leia was in love with him
[00:11:45] and and literally as we're playing the game he would pause the gameplay to be like all right
[00:11:51] so I'm my character is going to talk with Leia and he would have a conversation with both
[00:11:55] sides and literally my friend looked at each other we're like okay so while you're doing
[00:11:58] that we're gonna no no we gotta play this out first and we're like okay so that was my
[00:12:03] second experience it was like an acting gig so the DM was just like there for their acting okay
[00:12:08] okay it was it was some very personal fan fiction that I was way too so so what I'm learning is
[00:12:13] we need to sit down and play D&D together I need to get a property 20 game um yeah
[00:12:19] that being said I love Dungeons & Dragons extended media you know I love the movie
[00:12:23] I love the the cartoon show as a kid you know um what what brought this about John
[00:12:30] um I have seven siblings so for me it was like we are all so different that I wanted to kind of
[00:12:40] like I wanted to tell a story about like my siblings and my family dynamics so if you look
[00:12:44] at it um I have one older sister that's in the comic and then there's me and we have the same
[00:12:52] mom my other siblings are through my dad so in the comic I make a joke about the dad being
[00:12:58] like a host and it's real like that yeah I didn't ask for permission either that's just a real
[00:13:04] thing yeah so all my other siblings are from my dad and they have different moms for the most
[00:13:10] part gotcha so it's it's like a weird web like family tree thing it's not even like just
[00:13:17] it just branches out all crazy so I was like my younger brother is like a minor league
[00:13:22] soccer player and I'm nowhere near that like at all and then uh like my youngest sister's name
[00:13:30] is Vanessa and she just had a baby and she's 20 so I'm just like oh I have so much to write
[00:13:36] about but I didn't know what like uh vehicle to tell that story in so well I was thinking
[00:13:43] about running a D&D game and I thought about how fun it would be to do one for my family
[00:13:47] because they would all just play character like bigger versions of themselves or what they wanted
[00:13:53] to be and I was like oh I already know what kind of character each one would want to be
[00:13:58] and then I just started writing that down and then I was like there's a story here about that
[00:14:02] and then I was able to just kind of like put it together and me and the artists are like
[00:14:06] doing the layouts for like issue three already because I'm like ready to go and the more the
[00:14:11] more I'm writing it I'm like yeah this is like real personal but also honest and like funny and
[00:14:18] stuff. John, every time I talk with you I learn some other fascinating thing about you
[00:14:25] like you know you work at a funeral home and you've made 5,000 comics and then
[00:14:32] wait where are you in the seven kids like what number? I'm number two so there's my
[00:14:37] for some reason I was like I'm the seventh son of a seventh son
[00:14:41] but you know what's really scary is as you were describing that I was counting my siblings and
[00:14:45] I'm like wait a minute there's seven siblings in my family too. Yeah and you're realizing
[00:14:49] this right now. We weren't raised together so I had to like literally think about it and I
[00:14:54] was like okay all right okay all right I have a bigger family than I thought I did.
[00:15:00] Do you have 20 siblings?
[00:15:06] Do what? I said do you have 20 siblings earlier? No I'm a weird Latina with zero siblings.
[00:15:13] See I thought I was a weird one with only one for the longest time but then I was like no
[00:15:17] works out. Yeah that's the way I was. When I was younger I thought I only had one sibling
[00:15:22] and then I turned 10 and they're like we gotta talk. Oh my gosh! I was like it's the
[00:15:28] Harry Potter talk I'm a wizard or something. And your parents are like that's also true but
[00:15:35] yeah that's not why we're all crying right now and I'm like oh fantastic. Oh no not at 10!
[00:15:42] Well then they bring out like my siblings like in my family I'm like what is this? And then
[00:15:48] like you get older and you figure it out. Yeah yeah I was like that needs to be
[00:15:53] in something. You know it's funny as I was reading the story I was getting into the idea
[00:15:58] because at first I figured they're just friends in high school or people who barely know each
[00:16:01] other in high school but then as the dialogue goes through I was picking up on that same
[00:16:04] SID sibling dynamic and it's you know one I'm associated with as well. I've got a full
[00:16:10] brother, a half brother, half sister. I had two steps brothers. I have a adopted sister so
[00:16:16] it's like you know I get that. I get how that works. Yeah and then we're gonna find
[00:16:22] out that you have such a big family secretly eventually it's gonna be like what?
[00:16:26] Your parents are gonna come out around the back and be like we should talk.
[00:16:31] Like we heard your podcast and it's like well funny story.
[00:16:37] Bring them out! It's being telecast.
[00:16:43] No I really like the just I'm so tired of like literature anything which is the typical
[00:16:51] nuclear family you know. It gets so tiring after a while like this is so much more realistic and
[00:16:56] now that like I've read through it love it and now knowing the story that it has with that
[00:17:01] connection with your family that's just so cool to like think about your own personal like
[00:17:06] connection with putting your family in an adventure because D&D is an adventure.
[00:17:12] So that's really hecking cool to like have that okay family we're gonna sit down play D&D
[00:17:18] and I drew it for us like that's cool. And you've played D&D with some of your siblings before?
[00:17:24] No none of them. I've tried to get them into it but they are not into like my older sister
[00:17:31] I could probably guilt her into doing it because like that's the one that I was born
[00:17:36] with so that's the one that like I'm the closest to so I was like I can get her to do
[00:17:40] it. My younger ones are much cooler than I am unlike every level. They're like this is too
[00:17:45] dirty for us nerd. Yeah it pretty much like yeah they would be like so like I'm like a wizard I'm
[00:17:55] like if you want to be and they're like well tell me what I want to be I was like no no guys
[00:17:58] like you have to come up with it like you guys get to do what you want and then there's
[00:18:04] I know they'll be murder hobos by the end of the first game. I mean that's kind of like
[00:18:10] I feel like that's kind of a win sometimes yeah. Yeah oh man that's that's so neat when you were
[00:18:17] pitching this to your artist or I don't know how you came across your artist what was their
[00:18:21] reaction on hearing and like wanting to put this realistically you know? So I sent them
[00:18:29] originally just like a breakdown of what I was hoping for and then for the characters it was
[00:18:34] all pictures of my siblings and like me and I was like hey so this is like what they're gonna be
[00:18:40] because my middle name's Emmanuel so like for that character I was like boom nice so I like
[00:18:46] grabbed them and I was like I put him in there and they're like how close to these people do
[00:18:49] you want them to look? I'm like as close as possible and like for one sister I picked her
[00:18:53] like when her hair was blonde so when she looked at the poster she wouldn't recognize
[00:18:56] herself right away but there Vanessa as soon as she saw it she's like is that me? I was
[00:19:01] like yeah that's you. Oh my gosh that's so cool though. I gotta ask did any of your
[00:19:07] siblings say like take me out? I'm not in there. No I didn't ask them permission I just did it so.
[00:19:14] Well okay to be fair legally speaking they are not officially in this any similarities
[00:19:20] any people living or dead is purely coincidental but unofficially they're in there. Yeah
[00:19:25] yeah because I knew if I did they would want they wouldn't try to filter me they would just
[00:19:30] be like oh that's so cool and then just ask me every day till I came out like is it out yet?
[00:19:36] Is it out yet? Like am I can I get a shirtless scene with a bunch of mussels?
[00:19:40] Sibling things yeah. My younger brother is jacked but he keeps working out like he he
[00:19:47] just works out all the time so like he sends me snaps and it's like him shirtless like
[00:19:50] posing and stuff. Wow. And I was like I'm glad that we got into this point.
[00:19:55] This is where we are. My youngest brother's been doing that lately and I'm like why
[00:20:00] why are you sending me mirror pictures from the bathroom of your shirtless? Is that a thing?
[00:20:05] Yeah apparently I mean he's looking good don't get me wrong he's working out great.
[00:20:10] My youngest sister doesn't realize if she reposts something on TikTok I can see it.
[00:20:16] So it's just like the filthiest stuff like and it's not even like book filthy or anything
[00:20:22] it's just like slow down bro like I'm here I can see this I'm the only other one of us
[00:20:29] that's on this app. Oh my god. Yeah and she's like I sent her like a text once and I was just
[00:20:35] like hey like calm down and she's like what? You know what you should do one of these days
[00:20:44] is stitch one of her videos one time and then just be just then just look at the camera be like
[00:20:50] man that's that's the whole that's the whole video. Oh my gosh I'd be mortified.
[00:20:59] Oh man I don't have sibling stories so I'm just like living my care sick through y'all's.
[00:21:03] You have us. Yeah. So bringing this back to the the D&D inspiration for a second I was
[00:21:12] giving some of my personal horror stories I've got others. Do you guys have any like really
[00:21:17] either weird or embarrassing and horrible or really great stories that happened while gaming?
[00:21:24] Elia what you got? I mean I've experienced them all
[00:21:29] like which one do I choose? I think oh man I remember we were playing the Wendy
[00:21:37] so Wendy's came out with their own D&D or tabletop game. Wait wait sorry backtrack Wendy's?
[00:21:43] Yeah Wendy's the fast food stuff yeah they literally had like this whole D&D campaign
[00:21:48] release where they were even having dice given as like the toys and stuff like they were in
[00:21:55] on it but um I have a tabletop game. I can't believe I don't know about this. Oh what's it called it's the land of frosty. Well I'll look it up what happened?
[00:22:03] Okay so um I played a character based from the land of frosty she was a sassy princess and
[00:22:08] always needed help and my DM she's like the best DM at improving like if we ask for something
[00:22:15] ridiculous she will like she has the stats quickly she can search on google to get a
[00:22:19] reference and she's like all right this is what you have level this this like she's so good
[00:22:23] at doing that and so I she was a little spicy of a character and I was like can I hire a Gibb?
[00:22:30] And so she was like all right let me look at the stats of protection for everything all the
[00:22:34] leather and it's like okay well uh can I have an ultimate move that's summoning a Gimp army
[00:22:42] and it's like I can't believe I'm discussing this over a Wendy's fast food tabletop campaign
[00:22:49] and my DM is perfectly going and getting all the stats so that I can absolutely obliterate
[00:22:54] this boss um there it is yeah feast of legends it's actually so much fun if you want a good entry
[00:23:01] level uh tabletop game that's DND very DND based um I imagine if your character has red hair and
[00:23:09] braids you're automatically given bonus points I mean like it's it's a staple but yeah no it's
[00:23:17] it's so like there's the land of the frosty I think there's like burger land or something
[00:23:21] it's it's so much fun if y'all have a chance to play that system as like an entry and you've never
[00:23:26] played DND so much fun so much fun I'm gonna find that like right after the yeah you know
[00:23:32] what if you can't send me a message I'll send you the book like I have the the actual playbook
[00:23:38] that's so cool yeah this is reminding me there was a um there was an RPG an indie RPG
[00:23:44] that came out years ago uh called Ninja Burger and the whole premise of it was
[00:23:50] that you guys were a secret um secret organization of fast food delivery people this is way before
[00:23:57] uber eats in the 90s um and and your whole job was that an order had come in and you have to
[00:24:04] deliver it without anybody seeing you and and so you'd play out the game where you are ninjas
[00:24:10] whose whole goal in life you know you may fight other ninjas as well but your whole
[00:24:14] goal in life is to deliver the burger and fries and I'm like oh my god was this like dice based
[00:24:21] and like yeah just risk oh my god that's so cool I just I love all these different like
[00:24:28] now I'm gonna have to look that up and be like guys we have a new game to play
[00:24:32] because I love finding all these just like what are we doing okay I don't know that
[00:24:37] role playing is fun when it's like stuff that's like all right we're gonna be raccoons tonight
[00:24:41] all right we're gonna be yes llamas running a karaoke club like I found one that's literally
[00:24:46] like singing llamas um for an entertainment show and I'm really wanting to play it with someone
[00:24:52] I am definitely yeah tabletop so wild it's like taking you into these worlds like they get into
[00:24:58] in this comic that's why I'm like oh my god we get a story where we're going in a dnd world
[00:25:02] let's hecking go like while I was reading the book I wanted to see their character sheets
[00:25:06] I was like okay well what's their stats what's this oh my god because oh my god I can't I love
[00:25:11] seeing the combat stuff building oh my god I love a good dnd story john what's your dnd story
[00:25:19] give us something good something exciting something horrible something embarrassing
[00:25:23] so we uh I had just like left a table like it was like a bad breakup the dm was like
[00:25:30] supposed to take over from my buddy Aaron because he needed a break dming because he
[00:25:33] had done it for like three years straight and it all fell apart so it was like a half the table
[00:25:38] went to go play with this guy Ryan the rest of us stayed with Aaron uh but Aaron was like hey
[00:25:43] like I'm gonna leave it up to you if you want to like dm or whatever but all of my friends
[00:25:48] were kind of taking a break at that moment so my wife was like a couple of people at my job
[00:25:52] want to play and like we worked together at borns and noble but I had left at that point
[00:25:57] start working at the funeral home so I was like yeah like sure I'll do it and then she was
[00:26:02] like this guy Gabe wants to play and he is like six four he was a marine so like just six four
[00:26:08] crew cut like big guy and I was like oh fuck like I'm used to like weirdos like I'm used to
[00:26:15] nerds weirdos come in all sizes sir don't don't don't get keep it weirdo and he had never
[00:26:23] played before so I was like okay like I'll teach him how to play we'll see how this goes
[00:26:26] maybe he'll like it but we'll figure it out and then my friend Jess came and she's like
[00:26:32] four two maybe like she's really short really small but she's got like a real tough personality
[00:26:38] like she's really dirty when she plays dnd and I was like oh this isn't gonna vibe well she
[00:26:43] wanted to play like this manic like pixie character that was just like always trying
[00:26:48] to get some and he was playing like a goliath like ranger and my wife was just a chaotic
[00:26:55] dragon like born that was like trying to drink wait hold on a second I have a question
[00:27:01] but but what kind of a character was your wife playing in the game a dragonborn sorry that was
[00:27:06] that was my joke man I was saying that your wife is a chaotic dragon maintenance
[00:27:11] sorry she is she's not your wife but she'll say this and then she'll be like what'd you say about
[00:27:17] my character oh fair fair honestly but then Gabe came and he sat down he's like I kind of
[00:27:24] prepared my character I was like all right and then he jumped right into like an accent
[00:27:28] that he had been working on and I was like oh shit I was like perfect and then like they
[00:27:33] ended up loving it and like that table was like the most fun I had ever had because everyone
[00:27:38] was so different but they they vibed well like they understood the missions they played
[00:27:42] chaotically and then at one point they had found a goblin that they just adopted even
[00:27:47] though it was a fully grown goblin they were like he doesn't have any name so his name
[00:27:51] was like Gary Goblin and they just dragged him around and it was like their buddy so I had
[00:27:56] to come up with like a whole personality for this guy but I went to their work one day just
[00:28:00] to get coffee and like pick up my wife and they were like making jokes over the intercom to each
[00:28:06] other about their characters and I was like oh like like they're actually enjoying this outside
[00:28:11] of just like the table and hanging out so it made me feel really good as a dm because like
[00:28:15] up until that I wasn't making comics or anything so I was like you know I wanted to write I
[00:28:19] wanted to do stuff and I was like I don't know if I'm any good at it but like the
[00:28:23] fact that they liked the storytelling that I was doing Gabe ended up moving like before we got to
[00:28:29] finish that game but their characters are showing up in the comic nice I love it yeah oh my god
[00:28:37] I love that see I loved uh being so I played the white wolf game so they were called
[00:28:43] storytellers instead of dungeon master but I love being the storyteller uh so much so that
[00:28:46] that when I finally have to be a player again I forgot how to do that um but like
[00:28:50] what's really fun was hearing a friend of mine describe the way I would run the games to a new
[00:28:55] player and he goes it's kind of like uh Grand Theft Auto where there's very obviously a mission
[00:29:00] in front of you but you could ignore it and do other stuff instead the difference is the
[00:29:04] mission happens without you and and so like um I remember early on I had had the story where
[00:29:10] obviously there was a a woman who was running her own Babylonian cult and she was trying to
[00:29:15] call down an ancient god and they were supposed to stop her they were all like
[00:29:18] nah I'm gonna do other stuff instead so they did other stuff instead and then like a few
[00:29:22] sessions later because I hadn't planned for it but since they didn't stop her so a few
[00:29:26] sessions later I had a giant bull made of stars walking through downtown and they're
[00:29:31] like what's happening well she called the apocalypse like you guys didn't stop her so
[00:29:34] now fight that and I was like oh well I mean yeah we were doing the Star Wars one
[00:29:40] and I had set up this big elaborate pod racing thing like I built the track and I
[00:29:46] got pod racers so like physically like the little no no so you could be like physically who's in
[00:29:52] front who's behind yeah oh I love it I love it so I built this whole thing but the whole point
[00:29:56] of the mission was they were racing it was kind of like episode one they had a race for like
[00:30:01] a part in order to like get this girl off the planet because they were trying to help her
[00:30:07] so very Anakin Qui-Gon the race goes poorly just because as it does and like so they bail
[00:30:16] and they leave and then like three sessions later they're like oh shit we left her behind
[00:30:22] the whole mission yeah they're like so we're gonna bounce back and get her and then we'll
[00:30:27] just keep going and I was like yeah sure guys so then like this is like right when the pandemic
[00:30:33] was kind of like loosening up and everyone was kind of desperate to like see each other
[00:30:36] again because all of our sessions up until that point were over zoom so now we're like
[00:30:41] playing together and there's a drink called viking's blood and it's super it's super high
[00:30:46] alcohol content like me so we killed like a bottle and a half so at this point I'm like
[00:30:53] full on acting for everybody and like one of the characters was force sensitive he was like
[00:30:59] keeping the jedi thing on like the dl but then like I'm telling he was just like all right
[00:31:05] I'm gonna do a perception check and he killed it so I'm just like you feel the energy
[00:31:09] of the room and I broke down like this girl getting taken to such detail so he's like
[00:31:15] hitting the past what happened yeah and it just like it upset the player so he was like crying
[00:31:23] a bit and he was like he was like we did this and I was like oh I was like all right I can't
[00:31:29] drink in dm anymore like that was the last time I did it I was like can't do it I was
[00:31:35] like all right but that was like the most awkward because we still have like the rest of the session
[00:31:41] you guys still have flashbacks to that day yeah so now whenever I start like writing something
[00:31:46] for like a campaign I'm just like pull it back don't let me cry like okay it was too
[00:31:54] much man it was too much yeah I was like I did too much so I told you I ran the same game
[00:32:00] for like seven years right and most of that was the same players because with with with uh world
[00:32:07] of darkness it didn't really wasn't like it's not combat based there's a lot of combat in it
[00:32:11] but it's more about story so the characters mostly didn't die and then one time one of
[00:32:16] the guys that have been there since the beginning died and we're all just kind of
[00:32:19] looked at each other and we're like so um I guess make a new character and then while
[00:32:25] we're talking about it all the other guys look at each other and go we're gonna bring him
[00:32:28] back to life and we're like okay you guys figure this out do it and uh what happened is there had
[00:32:34] been this ongoing taxi cab driver that was in like every game even even whether we were set
[00:32:39] in the past or the present he always shows up uh his name is Jimmy Ho and he's of of of
[00:32:44] undetermined indeterminate um cultural ancestry like we don't even know where the heck he's
[00:32:48] from but he always knows things he shouldn't and he always takes shortcuts through hell and
[00:32:54] so they knew he knew how to get to the afterlife so you know it was a whole thing but it was a lot
[00:32:58] of fun I was like you know what do it find a way to make it happen let's do it and I just
[00:33:03] it's kind of fun having the players kind of run the game because I didn't I didn't plan any
[00:33:06] of that out it was all just them deciding based on other things that existed in the world
[00:33:10] up to that point how can we bring him back from from the dead and I was like I love it
[00:33:14] I love it so much oh my god I started a game as a dragonborn cleric and I wanted to
[00:33:20] bring Tiamat back because like that was my dd right like I'm a cleric I'm a dragon I was
[00:33:26] like naturally that's my guy so I was setting it up because there are these fish characters
[00:33:32] in D&D that if they think too hard about something they can bring it to reality
[00:33:37] so my character was walking around with pamphlets like I was basically just like
[00:33:43] making people second guess their whole lives I was guest lighting everyone in this town
[00:33:48] because I was my character would spend time while like other people were at taverns I'm like
[00:33:53] sitting there drawing and the DM bimby draw it out and I had my little pamphlets that I would
[00:33:58] give to people like hey have you heard of this awesome new god but I would never say
[00:34:02] the name or what it was about I was like unity peace famine like I'm gonna get rid of
[00:34:08] famine I'm making everything great and they're like oh this is awesome and I was slowly
[00:34:13] trying to like get this cult of these fish people to do my bidding oh my god the dm figured
[00:34:19] it out because he was like no why do you get excited whenever we're in a harbor town I was
[00:34:24] like don't ask questions like that's that's for me to know how far did you get did you
[00:34:28] manage to like I had a handful of followers at that point but that was the table with
[00:34:33] where it all fell apart so I never got to like see that through yeah I was super excited
[00:34:41] about it one day maybe I'm rooting for him no that's so fun I've never like you talk about a
[00:34:48] kill happening in your game Kevin I've never experienced a kill like you're a player party
[00:34:55] a player death I'm like I guess my dms are just so nice but I've never experienced that
[00:35:00] wasn't my goal to kill them yeah always make the story bigger you know always make the
[00:35:04] story bigger and like he would be just one of those things where he's like I'm near
[00:35:08] death but I'm gonna fight anyway I'm like okay yeah we I killed one person it was the Star
[00:35:14] Wars wait hold on wait we're not being recorded right now right yeah I know where I buried
[00:35:21] of anybody you would so I did our Star Wars campaign was set after episode uh like three
[00:35:29] before like between three and four okay so uh they were basically on the run from like the
[00:35:35] Empire their ship crash lands on this garbage dump planet like literally it's just like
[00:35:41] where broken edats go and broken speeders so they were finding a bunch of old like clone
[00:35:47] war stuff and one of them was a clone trooper with like a damage processor thing and there
[00:35:53] was an og not there that just collected scraps as like memorabilia from his time at the
[00:35:58] empire because he just remembered it loving the story of this world building yeah it was like
[00:36:03] his memorabilia was just like his time with his other og nots like doing stuff the him and
[00:36:10] the clone trooper hated each other naturally because one was empire one was republic and then
[00:36:17] like it got to the point where the clone trooper just needed to get his friends off
[00:36:21] the planet like that's all he was set to do that's what the player wanted to do
[00:36:25] and he ended up going down he died but at the end of it I never like close it with
[00:36:30] like an epilogue or anything like the game's over but for his character because it was the first
[00:36:35] time I had a player die I had the og not go take the body bury it and then he put the helmet up
[00:36:41] on the shelf from like the last encounter with like the pass that he would have so as they went
[00:36:47] away I described it to him and I did edit that for them but I was like oh man killing a
[00:36:51] players like it's yeah yeah yeah you know one day
[00:36:58] so as a player though like like um the last time I actually tried to play Dungeons and Dragons
[00:37:03] was actual Dungeons and Dragons proper right um and it was a guy who'd never dm'd before
[00:37:09] and I hadn't been a player in like five years at that point so probably was a mistake on my
[00:37:13] part uh not his um so like for example I'm designing a character and I said you know what
[00:37:19] this looks neat so I decided to make myself a half orc merchant and he's like but half warts
[00:37:26] are are not good at that and I'm like my guy doesn't know that um you know he's like they're
[00:37:32] really dumb they wouldn't be able to sell things I'm like my guy doesn't know that
[00:37:37] you know um and and then the first thing uh he did was had me encounter a direwolf so
[00:37:42] the first thing my guy goes is I'm gonna catch him and make him a pet and he's like you
[00:37:46] can't do that it's a monster I'm like my guy doesn't know that and I feel like I was a really
[00:37:51] bad player and I feel really bad for him because he was because he was new to being
[00:37:55] a dungeon master and I was I wasn't I wasn't purposely trying to go against the the the
[00:38:02] way the game was set up but I was just like I wanted to make a character not just design
[00:38:06] stats I wasn't like into like I'm not one of those guys that wants to like set up so
[00:38:10] I can win the fight I want to make it interesting you know yeah yeah yeah like the technicalities
[00:38:17] rules fun but I also like having fun yes exactly I had a character that was a ranger but I didn't
[00:38:24] want like a wolf or anything like that I had a monkey because like I I was like that's I was
[00:38:30] like I'm only gonna play this character a dire monkey no I'm sorry but I would use him
[00:38:35] because my ranger like I didn't build him correctly like I built him just for mayhem not
[00:38:40] for effectiveness and any means so me and the monkey would just be like spridle and chimp chimp
[00:38:46] from speed racer and we were just there for comedic relief so that like I collected like
[00:38:54] these colorful stones that I didn't know what they're for but I was like that seems like
[00:38:57] plot so I took it and I gave it to the monkey and he would juggle it to distract people
[00:39:04] so I was like oh like he's actually pretty good at it so that's how my character made money
[00:39:08] we go into a town post up at a bar I was like the monkey's gonna juggle I rolled I'm like he's
[00:39:14] juggling his heart out I just have a bag open that's awesome and where did the stones end up being?
[00:39:24] I don't that's the table that fell apart so I'm all like so intrigued in this story every time
[00:39:30] you say the table that fell apart I keep thinking I was trying to have a conclusion to this seven
[00:39:36] year long game and it was going to end with the apocalypse because what happened was White Wolf
[00:39:42] had at that time they were closing their universe and they were opening a new universe
[00:39:46] so I was going to have the story end and have the characters create the new universe that
[00:39:50] was the whole plan and yeah it fell apart never got to make it happen I got the whole
[00:39:55] thing planned out I also planned out a whole vampires in space story like I had the whole
[00:39:59] background is like like 200 years in the future vampires basically figure out they can be on a
[00:40:03] space station long if they don't go near the windows they're okay you know because the sun
[00:40:06] is always out but somebody had developed like a sun gun which is basically just instant sunlight
[00:40:14] and vampires like crap you know so it was going to be this whole thing but I just never
[00:40:18] never got never fell together you know give me one second I'm in with trawl
[00:40:25] oh we're just making you want to play now yeah we should yeah no my son was like freaking out
[00:40:31] and like his show stopped or something I was like oh no bluey stopped oh my god so how old
[00:40:39] does he have to be when he gets into his first game I was thinking about this because
[00:40:43] I was like like I put a lot of thought into this I was like I do want to do a like for
[00:40:49] his birthday one year like if I if he's into it I don't want to force him yeah but I do
[00:40:54] you're like you know hey you are good you are going to be a paladin and like it yeah
[00:41:00] we I wrote a kid's comic called burrow and it's uh like red wall inspired but it's like these
[00:41:06] mice and yeah it's like it's all that stuff and I wrote it and I was all pumped about it
[00:41:11] and then my wife's like who you writing that for I was like oh this is the campaign that
[00:41:14] I'm gonna put ben in when he's bigger because I had a red wall inspired game going for a
[00:41:19] little while but then like some people's work schedule changed and it fell apart so I was
[00:41:24] like all right so I just took that and I put it in there yeah that's cool though oh I love that
[00:41:29] idea yeah issue two is coming out soon you don't oh of uh bro yeah
[00:41:49] oh
[00:42:08] seriously till next week going back to the comics man how yeah how do you do this
[00:42:14] okay okay I'm seriously I'm not even being facetious right now because look I also do
[00:42:18] indie comics right uh I did I did a book during the pandemic and I'm doing one currently I've
[00:42:23] got it I just got kickstarter funds to get it off the ground um I am legitimately asking
[00:42:30] how did you get your first three four books out I feel like once you've got the ball
[00:42:34] rolling it's rolling but like how'd you do multiple at once how'd you do that
[00:42:39] uh so lockjaw was first like that I put all my time into it yeah yeah I just specify for
[00:42:46] people that joining right now like yes lockjaw is a marvel character but lockjaw and pistol
[00:42:51] veto is a very fun comic about a would it be fair to say undead mariachi um yeah who who avenges
[00:43:00] things as as you should along with his horse um so yeah okay tell me about that it was your
[00:43:04] first one so we got that one kind of once the ball started rolling on that one I just left
[00:43:09] it to the artist like hey just keep going I'll approve it but I I write my scripts pretty
[00:43:15] detailed but I don't write it where I micromanage so I'm just like hey like on the scene here's
[00:43:21] the panels that I counted like this is more dialogue heavy so this is how we're gonna do it
[00:43:27] and I just let him do it and I got lucky with that artist with medicine that he understood it
[00:43:32] and he ran with it yeah and then while he was doing well that was happening I was like I
[00:43:37] really want to do this comic called Americana it's really dark it's bleak I was like but we'll
[00:43:43] see and me and that artist spent a lot of time going back and forth on it because like the tone
[00:43:48] of that one's like super specific so I spent more time on that but I needed levity I needed
[00:43:54] something because like that book was bringing me down so I wrote cinema muerte on top of it
[00:44:00] and while I was getting that book like giving notes to Americana I was writing jokes
[00:44:05] into cinema muerte and that artist is like the biggest nerd I know like there's not a
[00:44:10] reference he can't pick up so that script is all references and it's it was a movie script
[00:44:16] originally that I wrote yeah so I just changed some of the directional stuff took it out
[00:44:20] changed it to panels and I gave it to him and he was like you know he was giving me back
[00:44:24] pages I'm like he got it so while those were happening I just started writing the rest of them
[00:44:31] and okay okay but that's the writing process yeah what about the production like you have to
[00:44:36] find artists you have to work with them there's funding issues all that kind of stuff like I to me
[00:44:42] like if I could just write all the time I would love it but I can't run a business I can't you
[00:44:46] know I can't do that yeah so like how does that work they were all self-funded like I was
[00:44:53] working at the funeral home I'm a wedding photographer I just never stop working and
[00:44:57] my son wasn't born yet so it was easy to just like I worked seven days a week for like
[00:45:02] two years to get the money because I started in 2020 on the writing end of it and then started
[00:45:08] getting some of the art early on and then it was just like I made 100 bucks 100 bucks going out
[00:45:15] so it was just like that non-stop and then for lucha forever I was like I'm gonna figure
[00:45:20] out kickstarter I gotta figure out how this works and lucha forever was kickstarted and
[00:45:25] I was like okay I like it but the time restraint I didn't like because I like
[00:45:29] getting people the next issue as fast as I can if I can so I was like I gotta I'll do that again
[00:45:37] but for something bigger like I'll have an event comic like another big title drop thing
[00:45:43] so I'm planning that out now but I don't like the speed of kickstarter and I don't like
[00:45:49] like the the pressuring like the having to talk about it yeah before I was like doing
[00:45:54] tiktok more it was harder like because it was just instagram that I was on now that I have more of a
[00:46:00] presence on tiktok I think it'll be easier to like at least talk about it because people know
[00:46:04] then that I talk about my books yeah but yeah that early lucha one just kind of threw me off
[00:46:11] but we sold lucha and yorona now so now that's two books that I can keep making that somebody
[00:46:16] else is paying for wait wait wait hold on time you said oh yeah yeah uh so I don't own the
[00:46:22] rights to lucha forever and more it's this comic company called comic or press which is one of the
[00:46:27] few of your books that I've not read yet by the way yeah lucha forever and yorona they bought the
[00:46:31] rights really yeah wow yeah so honestly I mean congrats I mean but putting stuff out there
[00:46:38] and then and then yeah going to the next step I love it but speaking of the next step you are
[00:46:42] going to be tabling and this is something that is usually um I know a lot of indie guys that
[00:46:47] do that a lot where they will table and elia does that a lot right as it was that
[00:46:52] speaking of which uh you're wearing a shirt right now for a convention what's going on
[00:46:56] for c2e2 so I just got these in for the show it's like the biggest show in Chicago it's like
[00:47:02] it's one of the biggest ones in the country yeah and a lot of comic people are going to be
[00:47:07] there so like a lot of the shows that I've been doing comics aren't really the main focus
[00:47:11] it's like meeting Danny Trejo or doing something else yeah and then I happen to catch the comic
[00:47:16] people that are there but this one's going to be the first show where like people are
[00:47:21] specifically going there to meet like Kyle Higgins or like Stephanie Phillips like all these comic
[00:47:25] people are going to be there yeah so I'm hoping that by doing that I get to like talk to more
[00:47:31] comic pros and just actually make new fans that are people that like comics and not just like
[00:47:37] people that are kind of interested in comics and happen to be there for something else
[00:47:40] yeah so yeah we'll see how it goes there are people I think it's a perfect place yeah
[00:47:46] not on Twitter not anymore yeah yeah no man I post anything on there and like the first comment
[00:47:54] I get is just like Prince Dead I'm like that's cool yeah right like okay I will say I joined
[00:48:00] threads recently I don't use it very often but I have seen a lot of comic professionals on there
[00:48:04] so yeah yeah I'm not just gonna do it I was there like a week and Gail Simone started
[00:48:10] following me which is like I was like what really I was like cool okay um I should post
[00:48:14] more and then I don't post more yeah I feel that that's how it goes yeah of the three of us
[00:48:20] Ellie I feel like you're the expert on tabling um what is that process like from an artist
[00:48:26] um stressful expensive um but if if you know how I think I think part of the the illustration
[00:48:37] stuff if you want to get your stuff out there that no one talks about is the marketing
[00:48:41] aspect you got to know how to reach your audience you got to know how to talk to your
[00:48:45] audience you got to know how to reach like people outside of your audience if you want
[00:48:49] to expand and it's it's a lot like you can you can show up you can table and I'm talking
[00:48:55] about like the creator side of it I know there's like artist Ali like people who do
[00:48:58] nothing but fan art but like as an indie creator you have to be able to market what you're doing
[00:49:04] you can't just be like I made a comic here it is yeah like it's it's going to be this is
[00:49:09] my comic and this is why you'll like it and also I'm planning on doing like it you got to have
[00:49:14] everything ready um but I hope to expand more on my experience I feel like I'm just touching on
[00:49:20] the edge of where I want to be I'm loving this though because well oh sorry I think
[00:49:24] you've been expanding the describing experience because I'm loving that we're having this
[00:49:27] discussion yeah I feel like for a lot of listeners these are this is key stuff as you
[00:49:32] as you're talking about you have to put a comic out there not just like have it but tell
[00:49:35] people about it it occurs to me since I've been posting online you know mostly TikTok right
[00:49:41] I got a few people reach out to me right one person reached out to me said hey
[00:49:45] I'm a first-time artist I'm doing this here's what the project is I've got little bits
[00:49:49] I'm going to go on Kickstarter and I looked at it I said you know I love your stuff it
[00:49:52] gets great idea let's do it somebody else sent me just like the cover of their book and no
[00:49:59] words and I'm like I don't know what to do with this I know it's your book the art looks good
[00:50:06] I'm sure the story is going to be great but like unless you when you're reaching out people
[00:50:10] you got to tell them what's happening they may ignore you they may tell you no but like you
[00:50:14] have to put yourself out there yeah how honest do you get with people because I had
[00:50:18] someone reach out and they want me to do a review of their book and I was like hey man
[00:50:22] I'm gonna do like a real fluff one for you I was like there is some pacing like I got two
[00:50:28] issues out of it like they I bought it so that way I didn't want them to like give me anything
[00:50:32] because like you're new let me support I'll buy them yeah I bought it and I was just like hey
[00:50:37] like I'm two issues in and nothing's happened like it's been two issues of exposition
[00:50:43] and I don't want to like break your heart but yeah I flat out ask people do you want a
[00:50:50] critique or do you want like a nice review and every once in a while I have somebody
[00:50:56] that'll pause and be like I want a nice review and I'll be like all right I really like the art
[00:51:01] I like I like the colors you have chosen you I could really see where you're going with this
[00:51:04] it's a it's a heck of a lot of fun but somebody wants critique I will give them a critique and
[00:51:09] every once in a while somebody will say I can take it give me a full critique I said okay
[00:51:13] and I don't tear them apart but I'm like all right well you need to develop this you need
[00:51:16] to develop this you know yes but it's but it's basically there and then radio silence like
[00:51:21] like like I want to critique I give them and again I'm not people who know me you know I'm
[00:51:26] I always try to find positives in everything I'm talking about it's still too much for some
[00:51:30] people they're like no whereas me I like I fully encourage you read my book tell me what's wrong
[00:51:35] with it I will be fine with it oh okay I'm down for that I'm not I'm not gonna be
[00:51:45] offended um okay I mean flat out sometimes there'll be things like no I'm keeping that
[00:51:50] because that's needs to be this way but other times it'll be like okay cool I see why that's
[00:51:54] the problem you know yeah um yeah on that note let's talk about story creation you already talked
[00:52:00] about like you know D&D came from that and you talked about uh so where do where do story ideas
[00:52:07] come from when you're when you're trying to develop your your worlds so usually I'll start
[00:52:13] with the scene and in familiar dungeons I remember when I wanted to write it was it was
[00:52:18] the scene and it's Emanuel and it's Sophia and they're sitting there and the sun setting down
[00:52:24] and the game's gonna restart and you can see she's like I'm ride or die for whatever's
[00:52:29] gonna happen next but like I just need to know that eventually we're gonna go past this
[00:52:35] and he's very much telling her like I don't think I can and she was like we'll talk
[00:52:39] about it tomorrow and then they let themselves restart for some reason that scene was in my
[00:52:44] head because I saw the dragon in the distance and the tower because I was like that's my um
[00:52:49] I can remember there's like this rule in filmmaking that if you see a gun it's got to go off
[00:52:54] yeah let's check off's gun check off's gun so that tower and that dragon that's my like
[00:52:59] Chekov's gun of like that's we're gonna get there so I wrote that scene first in my head
[00:53:06] and then I was like well who is he why are we here and then everything starts to I always
[00:53:10] build kind of backwards or from like the middle out and then I started doing it that way and then
[00:53:15] I was like okay this is the this is where I can put my family in and that's who these characters
[00:53:20] are and then even the villain this Sylvester kid like I was like oh I know him he's just
[00:53:27] like that angry nerd that's like D&D is getting too popular and I'm getting edged out of this
[00:53:34] game because like all my microaggressions that I can put into this game are not cool anymore
[00:53:39] yeah and then I was like I want to tell his story because I understand like if you're really into
[00:53:44] something and now it's popular and now you don't you feel like you own it anymore it's scary
[00:53:51] but also grow up so like that's what I'm doing with him and like that character and like the
[00:53:57] side characters are some are like pulled from like D&D games that have run but other ones are
[00:54:02] just meant to be like actual family experiences like people getting offered careers or people
[00:54:08] like coming into lives that kind of pull other people out of your life like those kind of things
[00:54:13] are all going to be in there too so it's just like as I'm writing it they come to me or I'll
[00:54:19] think of a scene or I'll see something I'm like you know what would be cool and then it makes
[00:54:23] its way in. Elia how about you? You've written a lot of like short comics but you've also
[00:54:30] written some that have ongoing stories how do you develop how do you develop your stories?
[00:54:34] Oh it's so difficult I still find myself learning how to be a better storyteller. I've never really
[00:54:39] been good at writing. That's always a process for everybody. Yeah it's such even people like
[00:54:43] Jonathan yeah that's why I wrote 26 we gotta figure it out. No I've always been just such a
[00:54:50] visual person I tell my stories with pictures to avoid words but I mean I gotta have
[00:54:54] words behind the pictures and so what I've found that I do commonly now that I was
[00:55:00] listening to John talk about I'm like yeah I kind of just I think about where I start a story
[00:55:05] and where I want it to end up and then the middle part is where I get lost a lot.
[00:55:09] I feel like I trail off and do like side quests that don't need to be there
[00:55:13] and then we get to the end and I don't like what's in the middle anymore so that's
[00:55:17] where that's where my writing struggle is but I always I have no problem coming up with
[00:55:21] how do I want to start my story and build it up? How do I want to come down and get to
[00:55:26] the resolution? I will take any lessons on how to do the middle part better.
[00:55:32] You know I think when it comes to I mean everybody's different but for me I often look
[00:55:37] at the story act structure whether it's like you know the beginning of the climax and
[00:55:43] everything like that or even I always hesitate to tell people I encourage people not to use
[00:55:49] the hero's journey as a basis for your story but you can still take ideas from it. I know
[00:55:56] for myself I usually start with a basic like elevator pitch idea like oh here's a concept
[00:56:00] I like it but it goes nowhere unless I can develop the characters once I know that the
[00:56:05] characters have lives of their own they've got loves they've got hates they're things
[00:56:08] that they goals that's when the story comes together so for example with the world's war
[00:56:13] comics which is currently being made working on it right now I hope to have it out in the
[00:56:17] next couple months I guess what you're talking about John about the time frame for Kickstarter
[00:56:22] after I had to wait before going to the next step until it got funded because I just can't
[00:56:26] but people would ask me oh what are the powers of the characters I'm like well
[00:56:30] I can describe the powers to you but that's not the important part like to me it's not
[00:56:35] about rather who wins who's stronger in a fight it's about why are they fighting and what
[00:56:39] is the goal and that's the big thing for me. That's a big frustration thing for me is
[00:56:47] people will pitch me their stuff or they'll like come at me with something and they'll be like
[00:56:52] well my character can do this and this is why he could kill your characters I was like dude
[00:56:56] I don't care that's not the goal yeah it's like a broken actor trying to figure out his thing
[00:57:02] but I'll do that I don't care about any of my characters like powers or abilities
[00:57:07] it's there to move the story and to help the story but it's not there to be like
[00:57:12] and this is the only thing that can stop them yeah a lot of indie guys I think get lost in
[00:57:18] that where it's just like well the powers are the story and not the characters.
[00:57:22] I think that comes from a lot of like early storytelling you know you read this as a kid
[00:57:26] you think about the big fights that's what people want to focus on yeah um and and to
[00:57:30] me it's like you could have Superman fighting green arrow and there is a way for green arrow
[00:57:35] to win and and you know it was a kryptonite I'm like that's not the important part it's not
[00:57:38] about how they won it's the point of like should the character win you know and how that's one
[00:57:45] thing I love about um like Doctor Who for example is there's never a question of whether
[00:57:50] or not Doctor Who can defeat the bad guys always always defeat the bad guys the question
[00:57:54] is often should the doctor win and I love that um one of my favorite runs in comics is a
[00:57:59] dance lot silver surfer run and one thing that always drives me nuts is whenever people
[00:58:03] take over Carol Danvers Captain Marvel or they take over Doctor Strange one of the first
[00:58:08] things they do is depower the character like I like yeah like three of Carol Danvers runs
[00:58:12] start with her losing power in some way and and at least two of Doctor Strange's recent
[00:58:17] runs the past 10 years started with him losing powers and dance lot silver surfer run was like
[00:58:22] no he's full power all the way through he is basically a god like and I mean that like even
[00:58:27] two people like Thor uh and it was never can he win it was always should he and then learning
[00:58:35] not the limitations of his of himself but of of ethics and I'm like that is interesting to me
[00:58:42] yeah people that tell me that Superman's a boring character it's kind of like a red flag
[00:58:46] because I'm oh yeah entirely yeah I was like he's not boring you're just not thinking about him
[00:58:51] correctly yep and that's like my bucket list character to like oh right 100% yeah yeah yeah
[00:58:58] yeah I'm the same way I would love to take somebody like Doctor Strange I there was a
[00:59:02] thing I read once that was basically an editor didn't said he didn't like Doctor Strange
[00:59:06] because there's no rules to his magic and I'm like no there are rules there are there are more
[00:59:11] rules to Doctor Strange than there are to what Tony Stark and Reed Richards can do to science
[00:59:15] like literally those guys can do anything whereas he has limitations they may be
[00:59:19] like god-tier limitations but they're there and I find it interesting you know
[00:59:24] I'm sorry one of the big my last like rant thing uh there was that X-Men versus Avengers event
[00:59:34] a couple years back yeah and then Magneto was yes oh and then it was Magneto versus Iron Man
[00:59:41] because I was working at the complex store at the time and people come in to argue with me
[00:59:44] and I was like guys like Magneto's should win by all accounts and then the issue comes out
[00:59:50] and Magneto loses because Iron Man has a plastic suit like plastic nanos that cover him and I was
[00:59:58] like he's just magic now like he's just magic the thing is I well here's the thing I'm not
[01:00:03] going to get into who'd win things but I will say this Iron Man has fought people with
[01:00:06] magnetic powers before so it's not like it's new to him but at the same time it's like
[01:00:11] that's not the important part there's a comic book out there in which Toad Magneto's lackey
[01:00:15] in most of the media defeated Magneto and is running Genosha with Magneto underneath him
[01:00:20] and it's like that that's an actual Marvel comic you know like yeah anything can happen
[01:00:24] it just depends on the story it's all it matters that being said there are some bad stories
[01:00:27] there's there's literally a story where Batman beats up the Hulk and I'm like why why is that
[01:00:32] a thing and this is before Batman became his like ultimate Avenger of the Night thing that
[01:00:36] he became in the 90s um literally he kicks the Hulk until the Hulk gets winded and then
[01:00:41] the Hulk breathes in sleeping gas and passes out I'm like how come on this guy's taking
[01:00:47] atomic bombs to the gut and Batman kicking him knocks him out that'll do it yeah it was more
[01:00:52] like self-inflicted he didn't want to deal with Batman anymore he's like oh I feel guilty in
[01:00:57] this fight I'm gonna go yeah he's crying about his parents it's time for me to go
[01:01:05] then uh you know while we're on that topic of things being overdone um the the big issue
[01:01:11] with a lot of like superhero movies I think everybody's talking superhero fatigue I don't
[01:01:15] think it's necessarily superhero fatigue it's just that people are tired of seeing the same story
[01:01:18] how many superhero movies are the hero versus their evil twin you know like yeah every Marvel
[01:01:25] origin movie does that every and now a lot of the DC movies are doing that and I'm like if
[01:01:29] you told me tomorrow that the next DC movie was gonna be Superman versus mixed gas medically
[01:01:33] I'd be so happy I'd be like yes I am down there I'll be first in line to buy it again
[01:01:37] you give me something different have fun with it you have a blast yeah I think they the
[01:01:42] movies should be fun still like I think that's something Marvel did really well is like they made
[01:01:47] them fun because DC is always so dark but I think like especially with James Gunn you're
[01:01:53] gonna see more fun more B characters stuff like that and I think he'll do stuff to serve the
[01:01:58] story yeah we're still starting with Lex Luthor though and to me it's like I like Lex
[01:02:04] Luthor except for the last version and I like uh Magneto but I don't think every
[01:02:08] superhero superman movie needs Lex Luthor not every x-men movie needs Magneto you know
[01:02:13] unless it's Michael Fassbender because he's pretty I'm not gonna lie he is 100% pretty yeah
[01:02:19] I was rewatching it and I was like this isn't going anywhere but
[01:02:22] but
[01:02:42] so
[01:03:02] we're talking about the process of making it tell me about your your collaborator who are you
[01:03:07] working with for this you mentioned the artist but we didn't give us the name who's the artist
[01:03:10] yeah his name is Alatir he's like totally new to me like uh one of my friends that did Americana
[01:03:19] he knows this guy and he was like you're gonna like it the style is different than like the
[01:03:23] other books that I have which is what like really appealed to me and he actually draws
[01:03:27] some of the tops cards that Marvel releases nice he's the artist for that so he's always
[01:03:33] really busy so that's why this book takes a little bit longer that took so long to come out
[01:03:37] because I've been working on it for a while yeah and like his process on it is awesome like
[01:03:42] from the moment he sends me the layouts it's already almost fully penciled because he wants
[01:03:48] me to see the whole environment yeah as it's a risky move because yeah
[01:03:54] Ronaldo Garza the artist I was working with on um world war comics he's the same way like I
[01:04:00] think it's like he doesn't want somebody to see sketches he wants to see the finished
[01:04:02] product but I would rather see sketches so that I can make suggestions or corrections
[01:04:06] but no he wants to give me fully inked pages and then say all right what should I fix I'm like
[01:04:10] I feel so guilty saying anything at that point but I'm like this guy
[01:04:14] needs to be different here you know but like oh man um I love the line work I just
[01:04:22] I'm like I'm gushing over this art I'm just like what and I also love because like there's
[01:04:27] this you know the comic style and then there's the character with a little chibi face that's
[01:04:32] like oh it's at the very end um yeah but oh my god I was like stop it was very much like
[01:04:40] a manga sort of style reaction and I was like that's cute I love that he gave the goblins like
[01:04:46] personalities on their faces too like yeah they're failing and they're celebrating at times
[01:04:51] I'm like okay thank god like he he got the levity of it because I was like D&D is always
[01:04:56] silly like at the end of the day you're gonna as the DM they're gonna railroad you into
[01:05:02] something crazy and you have to like improv your way out of it so I was like the characters the
[01:05:07] monsters are gonna feel that way at times a little bit of a spoiler thing but for like issue
[01:05:12] two they have they realize they have to find a quest giver because now that the game is
[01:05:17] evolving the older brother's like I know how this goes we got to get a quest it'll move
[01:05:22] us forward yeah so everything around them is like oh no my parents are dying or the forest
[01:05:28] is burning he's like ignore it ignore it ignore it he's like I know where we have to go
[01:05:32] he's like that's a quest yeah he was like we're not talking to anyone and then they get to a
[01:05:37] tavern he's like whatever you do don't say hi to anyone don't talk to anyone and then he goes
[01:05:43] to the back room to find the wizard but the wizard's like you have to give me something to
[01:05:47] get the quest oh no and he was like all right and then the wizard's sitting on the like an
[01:05:52] iron throne type thing but it's cell phones because all these kids are there and that's what
[01:05:58] the kids have to give them because all the teenagers are there so he gives him the phone
[01:06:01] he's like guess I'm not gonna need it and it's like a super silly wizard guy but I'm just like
[01:06:07] because that's what I would have done if I was dming this story for them because like how
[01:06:11] ridiculous it would be if like you guys are coming to me knowing you need to go on so
[01:06:17] that's that's something fun that's going to happen there and then just the interaction in
[01:06:21] the tavern like I was cracking up while I was writing it and then I gave it to the artist
[01:06:25] and he was like can I draw funny things in the background I was like please oh I'm excited
[01:06:31] I can't wait yeah okay don't say hi to anyone speaking of waiting I want to ask right now
[01:06:36] when you said that's why this book took so long what does that mean in your world
[01:06:41] this book was written because I have a google drive where all my folders are number yeah
[01:06:47] but from when you started but from when you started this as a this is going to be a comic
[01:06:51] to publishing it not not just you had because I imagine you made that a script earlier
[01:06:54] but from you're like I'm gonna make this one now to it's ready to be published how long was that
[01:06:58] 10 months all right okay okay that's decent yeah okay because I thought you're gonna say
[01:07:02] like it took 10 days that's why it took so long I was like what what no we started then
[01:07:08] he got hired by Marvel so he took a break how dare he I was like go get that money like
[01:07:13] hell yeah and then he came back and he was like I drew five pages on my break
[01:07:18] like great and then me and the colorists were going back and forth a lot and then it felt
[01:07:25] like the book wasn't gonna happen because there was so much time like dead air between
[01:07:30] the pencil like the layouts to where I was and I was like I don't know if I could finish the
[01:07:37] story because like that first part in the in the party I need that for the story like I need
[01:07:43] you to understand like these kids are flawed they're teenagers they're gonna act like teenagers
[01:07:50] and then like you see a manual sphere of public performance but he's gonna end up being the
[01:07:54] part like I needed that to show you that they're not always good at stuff but they're gonna be
[01:07:59] good here like I needed that so I couldn't cut that scene those scenes but a lot of notes
[01:08:05] that I was getting back from like early readers was like when do we get to the fantasy world
[01:08:09] like millhouse going like when do we get to the fireworks factory yeah like in the sims
[01:08:14] that's what I was getting back and I was like yeah we're gonna get there and we're not gonna
[01:08:17] do a lot of flashbacks but like for story wise I have to do this if I could say anything
[01:08:22] I appreciated the amount of time you spent in the real world yeah I feel like that's
[01:08:26] something that a lot of modern audiences have been yet I've gotten used to this instant
[01:08:31] gratification which is not it's not to say that's a negative I mean that's perfectly
[01:08:35] legitimate as a story but there is something to be said to building into a world before it falls
[01:08:43] apart you know look at alien or even king kong it's a long time before you see the main character
[01:08:47] the main creature you know and it's like you know you're not even going 10 pages I don't think
[01:08:52] so it's like yeah they can take it um yeah I didn't I didn't have a problem with that at all
[01:08:58] um that being said um you said uh ready to come out when is this available and how will
[01:09:04] it be available so it is available now uh people can buy it on like the website wait the website is
[01:09:10] avena comics.com thank you and on our tiktok shop so it's at avena comics um on the tiktok
[01:09:17] shop we are offering the bundle that comes with the dice dagger and the comic and then it comes
[01:09:22] with the dice too because for each issue that we sell we're actually including a one-shot
[01:09:27] solo player dnd adventure that I wrote yeah so and then I bought a player I like that
[01:09:34] I bought a wax burner so on the back of the envelope because it comes in an envelope and
[01:09:38] it'll say like adventure on it and then the press thing is a d20 oh my lord yeah I saw the one you
[01:09:45] said I love it I saw it yeah it's so good oh my gosh so it comes with that so if they're
[01:09:51] like I don't I don't really play dnd I'm like well if you've ever wanted to here's a single
[01:09:56] player thing that you can do it's more of like a choose your own adventure like you
[01:09:59] don't get to build like a super elaborate character but all you need is a d20 and you can play it and
[01:10:05] there's like 10 different outcomes that I wrote it was a lot harder than I thought because I was
[01:10:10] like I've run games for years like I can do this and I sat there I have to make this fun
[01:10:14] for one person that I've ever met we got to go back and then it took me a couple of weeks
[01:10:21] to get it but now it's yeah it's super fun of the 10 endings is one of them just I fought
[01:10:26] with the bouncer for 20 minutes I feel like every time we started a game the guy running
[01:10:34] the game is a big plan and then it's like the players just fought with the guy at the door
[01:10:37] and it never got past the door there's one where it's just like you run outside to see
[01:10:42] what's happening and you take an arrow to the chest start over true to the choose your
[01:10:49] own adventure yeah I need to get this and play it with my stream and we can like draw
[01:10:55] these scenarios out like we can just have a random rolling last day of the month and it's
[01:11:00] like all right let's draw an adventure let's go that's so cool we're doing another one for issue
[01:11:05] two so like each issue we'll have one of these y'all get ready like oh my gosh that's
[01:11:11] awesome as we draw to a close I was gonna ask you where people can find you but you did kind
[01:11:15] of say that um is there anywhere else people can find you online yeah um so I am on x twitter
[01:11:22] or whatever I'm trying to build a presence there in case tiktok I'm sorry oh I'm sorry for me on
[01:11:26] that one yeah I was like I'm getting closer to like a 10,000 up like mark two and I'm like oh
[01:11:32] well there that goes great I just hit 10k this past weekend I've been so excited and the big
[01:11:38] joke with all my friends is like cool the day after you get 10k it's gonna get banned I'm
[01:11:42] like all right yeah I'm like I'm like 700 away and I'm like all the cremos go follow
[01:11:49] John go follow Elia Maria please before it shuts down which speaking of which Elia Maria how do we
[01:11:55] find you online um right here spiced illustrations on everything uh except twitter because I didn't
[01:12:04] give me enough characters so just any illustrations yeah I hate twitter I really I do not I technically
[01:12:12] have an account I don't acknowledge it it used to be fun but I'm Elia Maria I'm I'm
[01:12:19] I'm loving your your tiktoks I love the uh so much so much one piece content but but very
[01:12:25] well worth listen I hyper focus is like I'm caught up now though so I have to switch to
[01:12:30] a new series to to keep keep myself distracted while egg heads going uh and of course for me
[01:12:39] you can find me at uh at kevin garcia and short com on the tiktok on the instagram and sort of
[01:12:46] on threads although I don't use it uh yet I'm still working on I'm using it and a few other
[01:12:50] places um and of course you can find my pre most podcast at my pre most podcast.com and also
[01:12:57] at my previous podcast at most of your favorite social media uh places and on all of those
[01:13:03] streaming podcast uh apps you know we're on Spotify we're on you know it's nice knowing
[01:13:10] that as we're at the end of a show that people have apparently listened to I'm telling them how
[01:13:15] to listen to us yeah you know you never know though you never know three other streaming
[01:13:21] services go are we on Netflix not yet no never coming to max okay all right well on
[01:13:33] that note I want to thank you all very much uh it's always good having one of our prime
[01:13:39] primus uh elia maria here uh and it is good one having one of our regular uh guest primus
[01:13:45] Dona Vina here so uh guys thank you very much have a great whatever it is you have
[01:13:53] and join us next primo time same primo channel for my previous podcast we out bye
[01:14:04] yay
[01:14:23] foreign
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